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Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

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Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby dafal » February 7th, 2010, 6:15 pm

Hi,

I have a bull from Aldo Londi Blue Rimini collection and found a red one on the internet which I bought. When I got it I felt that there was a big difference in weight and the level of details. Is this a genuine Bitossi bull or something else? Please help me!¨

/Daniel
image=26008065.jpg]Image[/url]ImageImageImage
Last edited by dafal on February 9th, 2010, 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » February 9th, 2010, 8:56 am

Your observations were correct. This is NOT a piece by Bitossi. It is a knock-off. Both of the reasons you have given for being suspicious of the origins of the red bull-weight and workmanship-are the two greatest indicators. In my article "How to Spot Asian Fakes" in the Histories and News section of the Forum I discuss the horrible problem of fakes. Some of us learn from such lessons and although I'm sorry you got taken in by fakery I am so glad that you had the intelligence to have doubts and ask questions. You are no longer, in my estimation, merely a collector but rather you have become a knowledgeable collector with the ability to ask the right questions and look for the right attributes in a piece.

The Bull shown below is a true piece by Bitossi

Walter
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby dafal » February 9th, 2010, 7:02 pm

Thank You for your fast reply. I will send it back.

I have two more questions:
Are there any genuine red bulls from Bitossi at all?
I have a blue one where the"foot" is damaged, a bit has fallen off. Any ideas how to fix this?

/Daniel
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » February 10th, 2010, 9:06 am

As far as I can determine the Bitossi Company never produced a similar bull in any glaze other than Rimini Blu. I have, however, seen at least two versions of this unsigned,unmarked red glazed bull. I have seen copies of your piece plus another with more impressed geometric designs covering the body. Neither version can be attributed to Aldo Londi or Bitossi.

As far as repairs to your Bitossi Bull goes I personally would not consider doing the repair myself. Amateur repairs often cause more damage and often only serves to further reduce the value of the article. The problem you described seems minor and I would consider contacting a reputable restoration service. If that isn't feasible I would simply leave the Bull as is and carefully save any loose pieces. This way if you decide to sell it at a later date the prospective buyer has the option on how to have the restoration performed.

Walter
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby dafal » February 10th, 2010, 5:42 pm

Thank You Walter!

Best Regards
Daniel
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby postmodernnut » February 13th, 2010, 8:45 pm

If you are in the U.S., I can give you the name of a restorer we have used many times, he is nationally known and very good. Prices are also reasonable.
Jack
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby marialonga » March 29th, 2010, 6:58 am

Hello,

I am in possession of what I believe is a genuine Bitossi Red bull which I have had for over 20 years. Attached are 4 images which I would appreciate you to confirm its authenticity and approximate value.
It's in excellent condition.

Kind regards,
Maria
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » March 29th, 2010, 7:21 am

No, in my opinion It is not a Bitossi piece and as a general rule I rarely offer my estimation of values. I suggest that you read the post by Dafal (Daniel) who also asked the same question in this topic. Please scroll up to view photos of his Red Bull.

Walter
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby 5kazam » January 13th, 2011, 12:28 am

I am wondering what is the difference between a Bitossi bull/Aldo Londi, and one by Jema Holland. Both bulls seem to be from the same mould, and have almost the same body markings.
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » January 13th, 2011, 10:38 am

Thank you for pointing out the similar looking Jema bull. The designs of Bitossi bulls are all very much alike but are always different because each piece is impressed and decorated by the hands of individual artists. I don't know if that is true of Jema products. Between the Bitossi bull and the Jema bull you will note that the Bitossi example is more robust whereas the Jema figure has a slighter body, especially about the girth of the waist just before the hindquarters, where it narrows in relation to the Bitossi bull. Also, note the thickness of the neck and chin of the Bitossi bull in comparison to the more curved and slender neck of the Jema bull.

Walter
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby 5kazam » January 15th, 2011, 7:56 pm

Walter, Thanks for that information. I have also noted that the back to the rump on a Bitossi bull is slightly concave, whereas the Jema bull (or at least my one) slopes down at the rump. I would assume that the Jema bulls are impressed and decorated by hand as well. Can you also please let me know what and where the markings for a true Bitossi bull are.
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby ElQuixote » February 2nd, 2013, 3:37 pm

Walter -

I'd like to contribute some images of a red bull I own to add to the discussion. I acquired it about five years ago along with an ashtray during the same visit to an antique store.

I know you stated above that you don't believe red Bitossi bulls exist, so forgive me for bringing up this topic again. A few notes about my bull:
*The overall shape seems to be consistent with Londi (as another member noted, the girth is much wider than the Jema bulls)
*The impressions are much deeper and cleaner than the original photos above
*I have not weighed the piece, but it feels fairly heavy
*The color of the exposed clay on the underside of the feet seems to be consistent with original pieces
*The mark is handwritten and appears to include a "B" without any period or underscore (perhaps a very faint period is present, but I can't tell)
*The mark seems to read "Cer-B Italy" but the second and third letters are difficult to distinguish (maybe "Crn")

I think the bull is absolutely stunning so real or fake, I love it. I'm just curious to know more about it. Also, any comments on the ashtray are also appreciated.

Thanks for any insight you can provide. Let me know if I can provide any additional images or information. I'm new to the site, so I'm not sure what the quality of the photo uploads are - let me know if you need larger images. Also, the photos probably indicate that the bull needs to be cleaned (dust and grime).

ImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » February 2nd, 2013, 6:42 pm

In the three years since the original inquiry was first posted I haven't changed my view. It is more than possible that the popularity of the Bitossi Bull spawned a number of copies and molds made for potteries. I simply do not see this bull as coming from the Bitossi studio. The ashtray is, however, a different matter. It almost certainly was produced by Bitossi and I suspect that the missing paper label was probably a Raymor tag.
Walter
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby ElQuixote » February 3rd, 2013, 1:26 pm

Walter -
Thank you so much for your reply. Looks like I have some more work to do tracking down the origin of this bull. Could you offer any insight into the following:
1) What mark was used for the Bitossi bulls, and what was the era of production?
2) What do you believe my mark says? Does it offer any indication to the origin?
3) If this is not Bitossi, do you believe it still came from Italy?
4) Is there any mean I can use to estimate the age? At least to estimate if this was made 10 years ago versus 50 years ago?
5) Aside from glazed color and/or mark, are there other distinguishing features for the Bitossi bulls, either with regards to the patterns that were applied, the way the glaze was applied, the clay's composition, and the texture of the surface?
6) Is there any chance that Bitossi may have used some experimental pieces to test glazes? I wonder if such experiments would have been done on "substandard" pieces - The reason I ask this is the only two things that I can see that are imperfections that someone may feel detract from the piece are the amount of little spots/holes (as can be seen on both the side and mark photos) and that one of the grid patterns near the rear has collapsed or is depressed an extra 2mm.
7) Do you offhand know of any specific resources/references that I can look to for more information about this bull?

Again, my apologies for asking more about this bull, but I'm curious to determine its origins.

Thanks for your help.
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » February 3rd, 2013, 5:12 pm

[Image


Far too many questions. Below is a link to a Bitossi article I have written for the forum. It is worth reading. I will attempt, for the very last time, to answer some of your questions but it has now become an imposition.

1. The Bull was first issued in 1953 and it is still produced today by Bitossi, Flavia. The pieces on the market most often bear the Flavia mark or Flavia name, sometimes Bitossi and sometimes just an impressed "Italy" as noted in my article.

2. The handwritten word on your piece says "Italy"

3, It may have come from Italy but it may as well be a Chinese fake.

4. Other than Thermoluminescence testing I don't see how the piece can be dated with any certainty.

5. See the above photo of a Bitossi Bull and study the position of the head and legs. Study the detail of the head. Note the very deliberate and careful placement of the impressed designs

6. No substandard piece of Bitossi art would ever escape the lab and be allowed to be sold on the market. It is a preposterous assumption.

7, I do not know of any articles dedicated to the Londi Bull.

Here is the link to the article: bitossi-marks-t19.html

Walter Del Pellegrino
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby ElQuixote » February 3rd, 2013, 5:27 pm

Walter - I appreciate your time and assistance and I apologize for asking more questions.

If I am able to learn anything more of value I will report back for the benefit of others.

Thank you for maintaining the wonderful resource that is this website and for sharing your knowledge.

Regards
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby Gringo » June 23rd, 2013, 8:55 pm

I have been collecting and selling Bitossi ceramics for a long time in Australia and to me the second bull looks like it could be Bitossi. In Australia we often only have the Italy and serial number printed on Bitossi made goods. A lot are marked Erica on a paper or foil label but there are others from small Australian Italian importers who obviously asked for their own labels to be attached many have lost the paper labels and the same goods of equal quality show up in a range of colour ways. There is a citrus greeny yellow, an orange that is an intense vitamin c colour and a deeper orange which can almost be tomato red and a true yellow. These must have gone elsewhere outside of Australia as we were a small market so unlikely to have just come to us. Much of it hit it's peak in the late 1960s to mid 1970s here.

There are people who collect Bitossi here who will have the same pieces with a multiple of colour ways so I don't believe that the palettes were limited in any piece.

We had a huge influx of post war immigration from Italy and as such the people came here and popularised mid century modern style- Bitossi pieces were even sold in our local department store. My grandmother in her 90s has several pieces from new and they are from around the early 1970s. There are pieces in orange along with rimini blue pieces.

Bitossi pieces here are sometimes factory seconds I believe as the quality factor isn't always high even on labelled pieces, uneven impressed marks and poorly applied glaze over rough terracotta made Bitossi quite rustic. Jema stuff has a very smooth glaze often and the impressed marks are very uniform I think it looks like slip cast or some kind of white clay. The glazes look like they are applied in a more liquid form and to add some deliberate rusticity the are often over applied with streaky brush strokes usually in a olive green. The blue they used is much less intense and a little milkier.

Japan had some extremely poor quality Bitossi style ceramics come our but were obviously very cheaply slip cast with chalk like clay. They are sometimes sold here as Bitossi with the small lozenge or oval shaped made in japan sticker removed.
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Re: Is this a Bitossi bull from Aldo Londi?

Postby wdel » June 24th, 2013, 8:50 am

I want to thank Gringo for his input. This entire discussion, which is now three years old, continues to draw comments and this helps highlight the difficulty in identifying unmarked pieces with any degree of certainty.
I have been in contact with the Bitossi company several times over the years and I must point out that the company does not release "Factory Seconds" to the marketplace. Bitossi is, rightfully, extremely proud of its Quality Control. That control comes in large part because their products are all hand decorated by skilled crafts people and meticulously finished by hand. During anytime in the labor-intensive process a flaw is discovered the item is immediately withdrawn. To release flawed examples into the market would only dilute that reputation.
As Gringo has pointed out the frontal view of the bull in my response of February, 2013 is a true example of a Bitossi Bull.

Walter Del Pellegrino
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